Mean Girl Moms, Toxic Friendships & How to Protect Your Peace with Dr. Noelle Santorelli

In the "Surviving Roots" podcast, host Carrie Fund engages in a discussion with Dr. Noelle Santarelli, a clinical psychologist specializing in trauma and relational aggression, particularly among high-achieving women from dysfunctional family backgrounds. Dr. Santarelli, who also creates content on mean girl culture, explores the complexities of relational aggression, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and addressing toxic patterns. The conversation highlights the challenges of balancing personal and professional life, the impact of childhood experiences on adult relationships, and strategies for managing toxic dynamics in both personal and children's social circles.

• Dr. Noelle Santarelli is a licensed clinical psychologist with 13 years of experience, specializing in high-achieving women who have experienced trauma or grew up in dysfunctional family environments.
• She focuses on relational aggression and helps women navigate covert bullying in various aspects of life.
• Dr. Santarelli balances her professional life with being a mother of three boys.

"A licensed clinical psychologist, Dr. Santarelli has spent the past 13 years in private practice and is a faculty at Emory School of Medicine in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences."

• Dr. Santarelli's expertise and experience are highlighted, emphasizing her role in academia and practice.

• Dr. Santarelli discusses the challenges of balancing motherhood and a professional career.
• She emphasizes the importance of flexibility and viewing balance as a big-picture concept rather than a daily achievement.
• The idea of "seasons" in life is introduced, where different aspects of life take priority at different times.

"I opened up my private practice because I wanted to be able to have flexibility in my life and really sort of balance motherhood and working."

• Dr. Santarelli prioritizes flexibility in her career to manage her responsibilities as a mother and professional.

"I think it's more about the big picture. So when I sort of hone in and I'm like, wow, today was really crazy... If I take a step back, there are seasons where I'm more family oriented or more in my family work."

• The concept of life seasons is emphasized, suggesting that balance is achieved over time rather than daily.

• Dr. Santarelli discusses the feeling of urgency and how it can stem from early childhood experiences.
• She advises distinguishing between feelings and facts to manage tasks and responsibilities effectively.
• Awareness of urgency and its impact on balance is crucial for managing anxiety and stress.

"Sometimes just being aware of that sense of feeling of urgency and then checking in with yourself and saying, wait a minute, is this really urgent or is this just a feeling?"

• Dr. Santarelli highlights the importance of recognizing urgency as a feeling rather than a fact, which can help in managing stress.

• Dr. Santarelli explains mean girl culture as a lack of directness and authenticity, using subtle tactics to harm others' relationships and social standings.
• The concept of relational aggression is introduced, contrasting with physical aggression.
• Women, historically taught to be polite and nice, often resort to relational aggression due to societal expectations.

"To me, mean girl culture is this idea of not being direct, not being authentic, not being honest, and instead using subtle tactics to cut at people's relationships and interpersonal standings."

• Dr. Santarelli defines mean girl culture, focusing on the indirect and subtle nature of relational aggression.

"Relational aggression is you're angry, you're hurt, you're confused, you're jealous, you don't show it, you show it underhandedly by using tactics like..."

• The difference between relational and physical aggression is outlined, emphasizing the covert nature of relational aggression.

• Toxic dynamics in friend groups mirror dysfunctional family systems, particularly those with borderline or narcissistic traits.
• Women in these groups may exhibit manipulative behaviors similar to those seen in dysfunctional families.
• These toxic dynamics can have a trickle-down effect, impacting not only the women involved but also their children.

"This same system that operates in a borderline or narcissistic family with the parent is the same system that's at play in toxic friend groups with certain women acting as the borderline or narcissistic parent."

• The speaker identifies a parallel between toxic friend groups and dysfunctional family systems, suggesting similar patterns of manipulation and control.

• Toxic friend group dynamics extend beyond the immediate participants, affecting their children.
• The speaker shares a personal experience of encountering these dynamics unexpectedly as a mother.

"This is really bad because it's not just impacting us as the women, but it has a trickle-down effect to our children."

• The speaker emphasizes the broader impact of toxic social dynamics, highlighting the unintended consequences on the next generation.

• Motherhood prompts self-reflection and a reevaluation of personal identity and relationships.
• The speaker discusses the challenge of balancing past and present identities as a mother.

"I feel like having children humbles you in a lot of ways."

• Motherhood is portrayed as a humbling experience that forces individuals to confront their priorities and relationships.

• Recognizing toxic relationships requires an awareness of patterns rather than isolated incidents.
• Signs include feeling anxious or uneasy before social gatherings and second-guessing oneself.

"If over time you keep having those thoughts, those worry thoughts, that those sort of second guessing yourself, to me, that's a huge red flag to just take some inventory."

• Persistent feelings of discomfort and self-doubt are highlighted as key indicators of toxic relationships.

• Establishing boundaries and communicating concerns in toxic relationships can be challenging.
• The importance of identifying personal objectives and self-respect in social interactions is emphasized.

"In every social situation, there's three things at play. You've got your objective, which is what you want. You've got your relationship, which is how you want the other person to feel about you. And then you've got self-respect. How do you want to feel about you?"

• The speaker outlines a framework for navigating social interactions, focusing on objectives, relationships, and self-respect.

• Addressing toxic dynamics involves private conversations and careful consideration of objectives.
• Concerns about confidentiality and potential repercussions within the friend group are common.

"The fear is you have a private conversation, and that conversation, the fact that you're even questioning, will this be kept private, that in and of itself should be a red flag."

• The speaker highlights the complexity of addressing toxic relationships, noting the risk of breaches of trust and confidentiality.

• The speaker reflects on perceived differences in communication styles between northern and southern regions.
• Despite these perceived differences, similar toxic dynamics are reported across various locations.

"I grew up on Long Island. I think there was an emphasis on direct communication, more so than I've observed in the South."

• Regional communication styles are discussed, with the speaker noting a preference for directness in the north compared to the south.

• Mean girl culture is pervasive across different regions, though it manifests differently.
• In the North, the culture is more direct and confrontational, while in the South, it tends to be more subtle and under the radar.
• The behavior is universally hurtful and challenging to deal with, regardless of how it is presented.

"I think there's mean girl culture everywhere. I just think some people are more polite about it."

• Mean girl culture exists universally, with variations in politeness and directness.

"I still would like to think in the north it is a little more direct. Like, well, I'm just not gonna invite them."

• The Northern approach to mean girl culture is more upfront and direct.

• Individuals with relational trauma or dysfunction in their past are more likely to find themselves in toxic friendships.
• Familiarity with manipulative behaviors from childhood can lead to repeating patterns of accommodating toxic dynamics.
• People-pleasing tendencies and falling into childhood roles are common among those with such backgrounds.

"There is a tendency for those women to be primed to find themselves in toxic systems or friendships or friend groups as adult women."

• Past relational trauma can predispose individuals to toxic adult friendships.

"You can fall into your childhood role. Wow, that's very interesting in that system."

• People often revert to childhood roles in adult social systems.

• Repetition compulsion is a psychological concept where individuals subconsciously repeat unresolved toxic relationships.
• This compulsion is driven by a desire to fix or heal past relational issues, though it is often futile.
• Awareness and insight are crucial for breaking these patterns and understanding one's motivations in relationships.

"We have a compulsion to repeat the same toxic relationships that we have not mastered throughout our lifespan."

• The compulsion to repeat unresolved toxic relationships is a subconscious attempt to heal them.

"You want to be aware. So again, awareness, insight, taking a step back, taking inventory of what is driving me here."

• Awareness and self-reflection are essential in understanding and breaking repetition compulsion.

• Recognizing and addressing mean behavior in children is crucial to prevent long-term impact.
• Parents should engage in conversations with their children to help them assess their feelings and needs in friendships.
• Conflict resolution skills should be taught to children to empower them to handle interpersonal issues.

"I would have similar conversations. I would say, well, let's talk about this. How do you feel when you hang out with Susie?"

• Engaging children in conversations about their feelings and needs in friendships is crucial.

"When it starts to have sort of a more pervasive or global impact on a kid's mental health and functioning. That's when I think, okay, it's time."

• Intervening becomes necessary when mean behavior affects a child's mental health and functioning.

• Transitioning to content creation can stem from personal struggles and a desire to connect with a broader audience.
• Humor and relatability are key elements in successful content creation.
• Authenticity and honesty about personal experiences resonate with audiences.

"How did this begin? Because you are a natural. I mean, you're. You're. You're hilarious."

• The transition to content creation is often driven by personal experiences and a natural inclination for humor and connection.

"How this happened is this was a major personal struggle."

• Personal struggles can be a catalyst for starting a content creation journey.

• The speaker discusses personal struggles and the lack of resources available to address them, leading to self-driven personal growth.
• A significant moment of realization occurs at a familiar event, marking a shift from seeking approval to focusing on personal fulfillment and family enjoyment.
• The speaker shares a transformative experience of breaking free from societal pressures and the impact of this change on personal well-being.

"I broke this cycle in my life. I'm not drinking the Kool Aid. I'm not driven by approval and acceptance."

• This quote highlights the speaker's shift from seeking external validation to prioritizing personal values and fulfillment.

• The speaker describes the challenge of balancing a career as a psychologist with new ventures in content creation.
• Despite lacking a formal online presence initially, the speaker successfully leverages social media for professional visibility and creative expression.
• The speaker's background in performing arts contributes to a natural inclination towards creative content creation.

"I have a continuing education business where we do continuing education workshops for other therapists."

• Demonstrates the speaker's commitment to professional development and education within the field of psychology.

• The speaker emphasizes the importance of authenticity in social media content, which resonates with audiences and enhances engagement.
• Humor is a key tool in both therapeutic practice and social media, providing a means to connect and communicate effectively.
• The speaker acknowledges the difference between their professional persona and the more relaxed, authentic self presented online.

"It's more my authentic self on social media because I'm not working, but in the therapy room, I will be a little bit more reserved."

• This quote highlights the distinction between professional decorum and personal authenticity in different contexts.

• The speaker discusses the rewarding nature of connecting with others through social media and how it contributes to personal and professional growth.
• Engaging with diverse individuals raises the speaker's vibrational energy and contributes to personal healing.
• The speaker values the opportunity to impact others' lives positively, even in small ways, through shared experiences and humor.

"To have the ability to touch people's lives and make them feel not as alone as I have felt through that situation or in other situations in my life, that feels so rewarding to me."

• This quote underscores the speaker's motivation to connect with and support others, drawing from personal experiences of isolation.

• The speaker encourages embracing discomfort as a necessary part of personal growth and change.
• Clients are empowered to make choices and understand that discomfort is often a precursor to positive change.
• The speaker supports clients in navigating challenging situations, emphasizing resilience and the capacity to handle difficult circumstances.

"Are you going to choose comfort over change?"

• This quote challenges individuals to prioritize growth and change over the temporary ease of remaining in comfort zones.