How to Grow From Feedback, with Jennifer Garvey Berger

In this episode of Coaching for Leaders, host Dave Stahoviak converses with Jennifer Garvey Berger, CEO of Cultivating Leadership, about rethinking feedback as a mutual learning opportunity. They discuss how feedback should be a bidirectional process that fosters growth for both the giver and receiver, rather than a one-sided event. Jennifer emphasizes the importance of separating data from interpretation, understanding emotional reactions, and engaging in open conversations to build solutions collaboratively. This approach not only enhances leadership skills but also strengthens relationships, allowing for continuous learning and development.

• Feedback is traditionally viewed as a one-way process where a leader imparts knowledge to a less informed individual.
• The concept of feedback should be reimagined as a bidirectional system where both parties learn and grow.
• Feedback should be seen as a process and mindset, rather than a singular event.

"Feedback is supposed to be the way systems learn, right? The way human systems, the way natural systems learn is by having come back at you something from the outside world."

• Feedback should be a reciprocal process that encourages growth and learning within systems.

"Feedback is a process, right? It is in many ways a mindset. And we think of it as an event, and we often think about it as an event where we're the hero, bestowing on others some wisdom."

• Viewing feedback as an event limits its potential; instead, it should be seen as an ongoing mindset.

• A crucial step in effective feedback is distinguishing between raw data and personal interpretation.
• People often create narratives that stray from the actual data, leading to misunderstandings.
• The first step in processing feedback is identifying what truly happened versus the story made up about the event.

"We do that all the time. We're constantly having data come in to us and then making some big story about it."

• People habitually create stories around data, which can distort the reality of situations.

"The first step is always to look at what really happened. And then what's the story I made up about what happened?"

• Distinguishing between actual events and personal narratives is essential for accurate feedback processing.

• Asking oneself questions can facilitate better separation of events from interpretations.
• Recognizing the difference between an event and one's reaction to it can open possibilities for growth and understanding.
• Self-reflection is a valuable tool for learning from feedback without immediate interaction with others.

"It's always hard to do. I completely agree with you. But the time that it's hardest to do is when we forget to ask the question."

• The challenge lies in remembering to question our narratives to separate them from the actual events.

"What story am I making up here? And what was the event that happened? Can I separate out the event from the story I'm making up?"

• Asking these questions helps in creating a mental space to differentiate between reality and perception.

• It's natural to react emotionally to events, but it's important to eventually reflect and separate emotions from facts.
• There is no time limit on when one can reflect on feedback; even long-held beliefs can be re-evaluated.

"There's no statute of limitations here. You could do it four years later."

• Reflection on feedback can happen at any time, allowing for personal growth and reevaluation of past perceptions.

"If there's enough heat in it, then we forget all about all these steps and we don't remember them until much later. And that's okay, too."

• Emotional reactions are human, and it's acceptable to revisit and reflect on them at a later time for better understanding.

• Understanding the difference between personal interpretations and the actual events can take time and reflection.
• There is no expiration on learning; it can occur at any point, even years after an event.
• Strong emotional reactions hold potential insights into personal triggers and unresolved issues.
• Self-awareness through examining one's reactions can lead to personal growth and learning.

"There's so much gold in our reactivity that we try to numb or tamp down or we feel ashamed about every time something happens and I get angry or hurt or offended or whatever the word might be, that there's something in me that's happening that I could learn from in me."

• This quote emphasizes the importance of introspection in understanding personal emotional responses as a source of learning.

• Leadership and personal interactions provide significant opportunities for self-discovery.
• Relationships are dynamic and involve mutual influence, not just unilateral actions.
• Understanding the context and dynamics of relationships can reveal underlying issues and patterns.

"We learn most about ourselves as we rub up against other people. And it's why leadership is such a potentially fantastic growth opportunity, because we're rubbing up against other people a lot."

• This highlights the role of interpersonal relationships in fostering self-awareness and personal development.

• Conversations are powerful tools for learning, offering insights that structured learning environments may not provide.
• Engaging in dialogue allows for unexpected self-discovery and understanding of personal identity and limitations.
• Real learning often occurs in spontaneous, unplanned interactions rather than formal educational settings.

"I think often the best learning happens in conversation. And it happens when you're not. This is the thing about feedback. It happens when you're not going after very often comes at you."

• The quote underscores the value of informal conversations in facilitating profound learning experiences.

• Effective feedback involves focusing on descriptions rather than judgments to avoid defensiveness.
• Creating an open dialogue where both parties share perspectives can lead to meaningful exchanges and mutual understanding.
• Initiating a conversation with clear intentions and openness can set a positive tone for feedback.

"The way to try and create the conditions for the other person to be as undefensive as possible is to not give them anything to defend themselves against. And what do we defend ourselves against? We defend ourselves against judgment."

• This quote explains the importance of avoiding judgmental language to foster a constructive feedback environment.

• Initiating difficult conversations requires setting a collaborative tone and establishing mutual ownership of the dialogue.
• Clearly stating the purpose and inviting the other person's perspective can facilitate a productive discussion.
• Allowing flexibility in the timing and approach to the conversation can accommodate both parties' readiness and willingness.

"I often start a conversation like this with something like, you know, there's been something on my mind or something troubling me about the interaction we had in the meeting last week. And I would just love to clear that with you, and I'd like to hear your perspective, tell you my perspective Sort of find a way forward together."

• This quote provides a practical approach to initiating a constructive and open-ended conversation about challenging topics.

• Establishing mutual consent to listen is crucial for productive conversations.
• Both parties should commit to listening and speaking, creating conditions for positive outcomes.

"And in exchange for that, you basically get the consent of the other person. Okay, I'm going to listen to you, too. We're going to listen to each other. That's the promise we're going to make."

• Mutual consent to listen forms the foundation for effective communication and understanding.

• Genuine curiosity about the other person's perspective is often overlooked in feedback scenarios.
• Leaders must cultivate curiosity to understand others' viewpoints, especially when triggered by certain situations.

"I think we spend most of our time not actually being interested in what it looks like from somebody else's perspective."

• Acknowledging the lack of curiosity in feedback conversations highlights the need for intentional effort to understand others.

• Responses in feedback conversations can be complex, requiring patience and effort to interpret.
• The person receiving feedback may not have prepared, leading to mixed emotional responses.

"The odds are very, very high. They did not read a book about feedback before talking to you."

• Recognizing the unpreparedness in feedback situations emphasizes the need for patience and careful listening.

• Engaging in deep, meaningful conversations is a core aspect of leadership.
• Viewing conversations as integral to leadership work can transform challenges into opportunities for growth.

"This is the work of leadership. Yeah, it is the work. And being able to have conversations where we learn is the job of a leader."

• Understanding that conversations are central to leadership highlights their importance in building trust and understanding.

• Collaboratively developing solutions requires understanding each other's perspectives.
• Preconceived solutions based on incomplete information are often ineffective.

"The difference is we go in with our solutions with this incredibly partial data, because I don't know what happened for you and I don't know why you did what you did."

• Emphasizing the need for collaboration in solution-building underscores the limitations of unilateral problem-solving approaches.

• Emphasizing the need to understand the broader context when addressing issues like missed deadlines.
• Importance of having a conversation to understand organizational dynamics and individual perspectives.
• Collaborative approach to problem-solving by understanding the context and planning next steps together.

"I've missed the chance to learn about the organization, about you, about me, about how I'm doing, about how things are working."

• Highlights the missed opportunity for learning and understanding when feedback is given without considering the broader context.

"If we have a conversation about it and I understand those things, then we have to say, okay, so it's really important that you get your work done in a timely way. And there's this other context we're sitting inside."

• Suggests that understanding the context leads to more effective problem-solving and collaborative planning.

• Reflection on the changes in understanding feedback over time and the addition of a feedback chapter in the second edition of the book.
• The realization that effective feedback remains challenging regardless of experience.
• The potential for personal and organizational growth through feedback conversations.

"I used to think if you got really good at it, it wouldn't be hard. I don't believe that anymore. I believe it's always hard."

• Acknowledges the persistent difficulty of giving and receiving feedback, even with experience.

"The opportunity for us to learn from it is so much bigger. I thought it was big before, but actually I've coached so many leaders for so long who are operating on a story for months or years even about another person or another line of the business or a customer segment."

• Emphasizes the significant learning opportunities presented by feedback, which can alter long-held perceptions and improve leadership.

• The concept of a constant, non-mechanical flow of feedback as essential for personal and leadership development.
• Encouragement to engage in ongoing feedback to learn from each other and improve collectively.

"The core move of our own development and of our successful leadership is being in the flow of feedback, receiving, giving, flowing through what's going on for me? What's going on for you?"

• Describes feedback as a dynamic and continuous process crucial for development and effective leadership.

"A constant non mechanical flow of feedback between us and we could all be learning so much more and our lives could be better."

• Advocates for an ongoing exchange of feedback to enhance learning and improve life quality.

• Recommendations for further exploration of feedback and leadership through related podcast episodes and resources.
• Mention of episodes focusing on adult development, feedback timing, and leading through complexity.
• Encouragement to utilize available resources for deeper understanding and improvement in feedback practices.

"Episode 273 Essentials of Adult Development. Mindy Dana was my guest on that episode."

• Suggests exploring adult development stages for a better understanding of feedback dynamics.

"Episode 583, how to give Feedback. Russ Laraway was my guest on that episode."

• Recommends learning about the process and timing of giving feedback for effective communication.

"Episode 613, how to Lead better through Complexity."

• Encourages understanding the distinction between complicated and complex situations in leadership.

• Information on accessing episode notes and resources for further exploration of feedback topics.
• Explanation of the free membership benefits and how to search for specific topics on the website.

"You can go onto our website. You can go onto any of the apps. All the notes links are available for every episode publicly."

• Provides guidance on accessing episode notes and resources for comprehensive learning.

"If you just search inside the episode library, click on feedback, you'll see all the conversations we've had about feedback over the years."

• Highlights the availability of extensive resources on feedback for targeted learning and improvement.