20 Growth Viral Loops; How To Create and Sustain Them, Why Interviews for Product and Growth Hires are BS and What To Do Instead, Mastering the Onboarding Process; Structuring the First 90 Days with Adam Fishman, Former Head of Growth @ Lyft

In this episode of "20 Growth," hosted by Harry Stebbings, growth expert Adam Fishman shares insights from his extensive experience in building and leading growth teams. Fishman, who has driven significant growth at companies like Imperfect Foods, Patreon, and Lyft, emphasizes the importance of understanding a company's growth model and the critical levers for scaling. He discusses the need for growth leaders to be resilient to failure, to respect customer input, and to blend quantitative data with qualitative feedback. Fishman also highlights the role of growth loops in driving acquisition, retention, and monetization, cautioning against the pitfalls of pattern matching and stressing the necessity of a holistic growth approach. The conversation includes a deep dive into hiring growth professionals, structuring effective onboarding, and the intricacies of cross-functional communication. Additionally, Fishman offers a candid reflection on a rebranding misstep at Patreon and praises innovative growth strategies like Locket's use of iOS features.

• Harry Stebbings hosts the podcast "20 Growth" focusing on hiring the first growth team members.
• Adam Fishman, a leading growth practitioner, joins the show with a rich background in product and growth roles.

Welcome back to 20 growth with me, Harry Stebbings.

This quote is the introduction to the podcast by the host, Harry Stebbings.

Now, Adam is one of the leading growth practitioners of the last decade.

This quote introduces Adam Fishman as a leading figure in the field of growth.

• Adam Fishman's role at Imperfect Foods as Chief Product Officer and Growth Officer.
• Achievements include growing revenue by 400% in one year to $600 million.
• Previous roles at Patreon and Lyft, with significant contributions to growth and scaling.

Adam built a 40 person product and growth responsible for 70% of overall company metrics and growing revenue, 400% in one year to 600 million annually.

This quote highlights Adam Fishman's achievements at Imperfect Foods, emphasizing his leadership in revenue growth.

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Apply for the Brax card with the code 20 vc... WHOOP has changed how I think about two things, recovery and actually body temperature monitoring.

These quotes are promotional endorsements for Brax and WHOOP, highlighting special offers and personal experiences.

• Adam began as a quantitative marketer and caught the wave of web analytics and experimentation.
• His career saw significant growth after joining Zimride, which pivoted to Lyft.
• At Lyft, Adam experienced a "graduate degree in company building" and learned about scaling a business.

I started my career as what I would call, like a quantitative marketer... Lyft was like getting a graduate degree in company building.

This quote describes the early stages of Adam Fishman's career and his transformative experience at Lyft.

• From Lyft, Adam learned the importance of speed in decision-making and a healthy relationship with failure.
• Patreon taught him the value of respecting customer input and the impact of creators' feedback.

I think from Lyft, it's probably the impact of speed on decision making and a healthy relationship with failure... respect and reverence for our customer.

These quotes encapsulate the key lessons Adam Fishman took away from his time at Lyft and Patreon.

• Growth involves a lot of experimentation and being wrong more often than right.
• Adam emphasizes the importance of learning from failed experiments and sharing those learnings.

A growth person has to be almost immune to failure because you get so many things wrong in your career.

This quote underlines the necessity of resilience in the face of frequent failures in the growth sector.

• Adam rarely relies on gut feeling and believes in blending quantitative data with qualitative customer feedback.
• The mistakes at Patreon were often due to relying solely on data without consulting creators.

I almost never rely on gut... I always want to blend quantitative assessments with qualitative discussions with customers.

This quote emphasizes Adam's approach to making growth decisions by combining data analysis with customer feedback.

• Growth is about understanding how a company grows and testing levers to accelerate that growth.
• A growth leader steers the strategy and can be either a solo practitioner or a manager of managers.

Growth as the function or functions that understand how a company grows... the VP or the head of growth, that's the person who steers the ship.

These quotes define the concept of growth and the responsibilities of a growth leader.

• The decision to hire a head of growth or growth reps depends on the company's growth model and the founder's involvement.
• Adam recommends hiring a mid-level "player coach" who can build processes and drive tangible progress.

It depends on a few factors... Ideally, they want to stay very close, but sometimes they really don't.

This quote discusses the considerations for hiring a growth team and the preferable level of experience for the role.

• The debate on whether growth teams should be standalone or integrated into existing functions.
• Adam cautions against trying to replicate the Facebook model exactly and suggests a tailored approach.

I think people have been really hard pressed to try to replicate the Facebook model to a t.

This quote addresses the challenge of adopting the Facebook growth team model and the need for a customized approach.

• Growth models are influenced by the company's growth challenges, such as acquisition, retention, or monetization issues.
• Growth strategies should align with the product's natural growth channels, like virality or paid acquisition.
• Organizational design is dynamic and should be communicated clearly as it will inevitably change.
• Growth teams may be integrated within product or marketing teams or operate as standalone units, each with its advantages and disadvantages.

"If you have an acquisition problem, a retention problem, a monetization problem that can really tell you where and how to focus and then what your product does and what market you're in can really dictate the channels that are available to you for growth."

This quote emphasizes that a company's specific growth challenges and market context should inform the focus and channels for growth strategy.

"Most of the standalone growth teams that I've seen eventually get folded into one of the other orgs, product marketing, something like that."

The quote suggests that while standalone growth teams are common, they often become integrated into other departments, indicating the fluid nature of organizational structures in growth-focused companies.

• Growth models are crucial for alignment, communication, prioritization, and organizational structure.
• A growth loop is a self-reinforcing cycle where the output feeds back as input, driving growth.
• Growth loops should be simple, with typically three to six steps, and focus on core levers for optimization.
• Loops have plateaus, and companies should be strategic about when to introduce new growth loops.

"A loop is a self contained cycle where the inputs into the loop become the outputs, so they generate something, and then that feeds back into the top."

This quote defines a growth loop as a cyclical process where the outcomes of one cycle feed into the next, creating a self-sustaining growth mechanism.

"A typical loop will have maybe between like three and six steps, depending on the speed of that loop and the complexity of the product."

The quote advises on the ideal complexity of a growth loop, highlighting the importance of simplicity for effective prioritization and management.

• Not all processes are growth loops; they must be self-sustaining and feed back into themselves.
• Companies often err by overcomplicating loops or trying to focus on too many loops at once.
• Focusing on core growth loops and extracting their value before moving on is recommended.

"It's really only a loop if it is a closed circuit that feeds back into itself."

This quote clarifies the definition of a growth loop, emphasizing the importance of a closed, self-sustaining cycle for it to be considered a loop.

"Focus and thinking that everything is a loop are kind of two big problems that I see with a lot of the companies that I work with."

The quote points out common misconceptions and strategic errors companies make when attempting to implement growth loops, stressing the need for focus and correct identification of loops.

• Customer psychology and market-specific factors can cause growth loops to fail, as seen in an edtech example.
• It's crucial to understand why a loop isn't working by directly engaging with customers to uncover underlying issues.

"No one is going to share this product in a proactive way. You're not going to bump into somebody in front of the school in the morning and go, hey, little Johnny is struggling in math."

This quote illustrates how social stigma can inhibit the success of a growth loop, using the example of a referral loop in the tutoring market that failed due to parents' reluctance to share.

• Understanding the company's growth needs is crucial before hiring for growth roles.
• Ideal early growth hires are quantitative generalists with a growth mindset and strong communication skills.
• Failed entrepreneurs are good candidates for growth roles due to their appreciation for customer acquisition and retention.
• The interview process should assess core competencies through exercises that simulate on-the-job experiences.

"Don't hire a marketing person. You really need is a product person. Don't hire a product person when what you really need is a marketer."

This quote emphasizes the importance of accurately identifying the skills and background needed for the growth role to ensure alignment with the company's growth strategy.

"I tend to like what I call like quantitative generalists as my early growth hires."

The quote reflects the speaker's preference for versatile candidates with a strong quantitative background and the ability to prioritize effectively for early growth positions.

• Observing user behavior at specific intervals is critical for understanding drop-off points.
• Week three identified as a significant drop-off point, prompting further investigation into product experience and communication strategies.
• Analyzing quantitative data helps in identifying areas for improvement and tailoring user experience.

"Oh, everyone seems to drop off at week three. That's really interesting. What are you going to do with that information? Well, I'm going to dig into what happens in week three in the product experience."

The quote emphasizes the importance of monitoring user engagement over time to identify specific periods where user activity decreases, which can indicate issues that need to be addressed to improve retention.

• Sharing growth model data and a list of themes and tactics for prioritization.
• Assessing the candidate’s ability to prioritize based on data, knowledge, and additional constraints.
• Evaluating the use of frameworks to determine impact, confidence, and reach of experiments.
• Prioritization skills are crucial for leadership roles and are similar to those assessed in product manager interviews.

"Then you've got a prioritization exercise. So the prioritization section might be things like you share some data or sort of snippets of your growth model and then a list of themes and tactics for them to sort through."

This quote describes an exercise designed to evaluate how candidates prioritize tasks and strategies based on the information provided, which is a key skill for effective leadership and decision-making in a growth-focused role.

• Designed to assess a candidate’s growth mindset through their past experiences.
• Examining past actions and behaviors that align with the company’s core values.
• Typically conducted by stakeholders rather than direct team members.
• These interviews help determine if the candidate possesses the desired behaviors and attitudes for the role.

"There's like the behavioral and the situational interviewing. So this is really designed to get at that growth mindset."

The quote highlights the use of behavioral and situational interviewing techniques to gauge a candidate's potential for growth and their alignment with the company's values and culture.

• Questions that test risk tolerance, grit, humility, and the ability to learn from mistakes.
• Evaluating candidates' responses to being wrong and their approach to feedback.
• Detecting ego and blame-shifting tendencies during interviews.
• Looking for candidates who take responsibility and have the capacity for growth and change.

"I ask questions that get at people's level of risk tolerance, grit and humility."

The quote indicates that the questions asked are aimed at understanding a candidate's personal attributes, such as their willingness to take risks, their perseverance, and their modesty, which are important traits for a growth-focused role.

• Ensuring candidates can dissect a business, articulate growth strategies, and present ideas in an easily understandable manner.
• Evaluating the ability to communicate complex ideas simply and clearly.
• Considering a hands-on collaborative exercise as a final step to assess how candidates work with the team.

"So you want to make sure that people can come in, maybe dissect a business that they like, talk about how it grows, and present an approach to changing it in plain language that a kindergartner could understand."

This quote stresses the importance of clear and effective communication skills, particularly the ability to explain complex concepts in a way that is accessible to everyone, which is crucial in a leadership role.

• Onboarding is compared to customer activation, critical for long-term retention and success.
• Importance of a clear 30, 60, and 90-day plan, known to the new hire and the wider team.
• The first month focuses on learning and building relationships; the second on strategy iteration; the third on long-term planning.
• Recommendations for reading "The First 90 Days" to understand the importance of onboarding.
• Emphasizes the founder's role in spending time with new hires to ensure their success.

"Those first few months are critical to their success. Think about it like onboarding a customer. This is your activation experience."

The quote draws a parallel between onboarding new employees and activating new customers, suggesting that both require careful planning and attention to ensure a successful and long-term engagement.

• Advocates for written communication and transparency with the entire company.
• Sharing onboarding and work plans publicly to set clear expectations and encourage accountability.
• Overcommunication is key to ensuring everyone is informed and understands the executive's focus.

"I built this out in a Google Sheets file, and I had specific rows, specific milestones, my plan, and very specific delivery goals and what success would look like."

This quote illustrates the practice of using accessible tools like Google Sheets to communicate plans and goals transparently, fostering an environment of accountability and clarity within the organization.

• Giving new hires a 90-day period to adjust, especially if they are new to the industry.
• Assessing their progress, engagement, and momentum during this period.
• Promptly addressing concerns if the new hire is not demonstrating the expected level of engagement or progress.

"If you're not feeling that part of the way through that 90 days, it might be time for a conversation and like a level setting of expectations."

The quote suggests that while some time should be allowed for new hires to acclimate, there should also be a proactive approach to addressing any performance or engagement issues that arise within the first 90 days.

• Emphasizing overcommunication and simplification of complex information.
• Tailoring communication to the audience and creating predictable communication streams.
• Establishing clear and consistent updates to build trust and keep stakeholders informed.

"The most knowledgeable person always thinks that everyone else has the same level of understanding as them, and they're always wrong."

The quote highlights a common pitfall in communication, where individuals with a high level of understanding assume others share their perspective, underscoring the need for clear and simplified communication to ensure mutual understanding.

• Embracing imperfection in communication can be beneficial as it prompts feedback and engagement.
• Visual aids are highly effective in communication, often surpassing the impact of written text.
• Transparency, candor, and kindness are key principles to adhere to in all forms of communication.
• Making communication human and relatable helps in building authentic relationships.

Yes. Ship it. The worst case is somebody reads it and they're like, I don't understand. And they write you back and they say, hey, help clarify this. That's actually a good thing. They're giving you feedback. They want to know. They're hungry for information.

This quote underscores the value of shipping work even when it's not perfect, as it can lead to constructive feedback and engagement from the audience.

One, the old saying, a picture is worth 1000 words. I think like, prototype is worth a whole chapter in a book. So I try to communicate with visual aids whenever possible.

Adam Fishman emphasizes the power of visual communication and prototypes over textual descriptions, suggesting that they provide a clearer understanding of ideas.

I practice transparency, candor, and kindness in all of my communication.

Adam Fishman highlights his commitment to being open, honest, and kind in his communications, which are crucial for effective and respectful interactions.

I think it's also just, it's about making it human. Like you said, the memes with the gifts, with me taking the piss out of myself, getting thrown out of school. Otherwise, it's just like, this is how you build authentic relationships.

This quote suggests that adding a personal touch and humor to communication can help in forming genuine connections with others.

• Growth leaders sometimes need to rebrand and reposition a company to overcome growth impediments.
• It's important to not assume expertise in rebranding and to seek help when necessary.
• Bringing along skeptical team members, including the CEO and founder, is critical for a successful rebrand.
• Effective repositioning involves not just changing words and visuals but also enhancing product experience.
• Customer interviews and qualitative research are vital in building confidence for a brand change.
• Expect some initial negative feedback on social media after a rebrand, but this usually subsides.

There aren't a lot of growth leaders who come into a company and then realize that they need to rebrand and reposition the company because that's the main impediment to growth?

Adam Fishman reflects on the uncommon situation where a growth leader must undertake rebranding as a strategic move to facilitate growth.

So don't assume that you know what you're doing. Ask for help.

This quote emphasizes the importance of acknowledging one's limitations and seeking external assistance in the rebranding process.

But they're not necessarily doing the job of the growth leader, which is to look into the future and see that there's a ceiling that you're going to hit.

Adam Fishman points out the unique responsibility of growth leaders to anticipate future challenges and act to prevent stagnation.

A lot of customer interviewing, qualitative, brand blind positioning statement testing this versus this, and they didn't know we were talking about Patreon, but we built up a lot of confidence that shifting from crowdfunding to membership, which is what Patreon is now, was sort of the right move.

The quote describes the process of conducting blind tests and customer interviews to validate the strategic shift in Patreon's branding from crowdfunding to membership.

• There are parallels between management and parenting, including cultivating a growth mindset and collaboration.
• Difficult conversations, empathy, and rewards are applicable in both managing teams and raising children.
• Management and parenting both require patience, consistency, and a long-term perspective.

They're the same. Cultivating a growth mindset, providing choices, difficult conversations in empathy and collaboration, goal setting rewards.

Adam Fishman draws a direct comparison between the strategies used in management and those used in parenting, highlighting their similarities.

• Foundational psychological principles like loss aversion and scarcity remain unchanged in growth tactics.
• Tactics involving social graphs, incentivized referrals, and content marketing have become less effective due to saturation.
• A common mistake founders make is expecting quick fixes from growth teams or hiring them without having product-market fit.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is the foundational. Things like psychological principles, biases, topics like loss aversion, scarcity, status.

Adam Fishman discusses the enduring relevance of psychological principles in growth strategies, regardless of changing tactics.

Growth is not a quick fix. It's a system. It takes time. You can incrementally win, but needs to compound over time.

This quote highlights the misconception that growth can be achieved rapidly, stressing the need for a systematic and compounding approach.

• A holistic approach to growth, considering acquisition, retention, and monetization, is more effective than focusing solely on acquisition.
• Growth leaders should avoid pattern matching and instead build a broad skill set across marketing, product, and data.
• Learning from failed experiments, such as Patreon's payment processing change, is crucial for growth and maintaining trust.

I'd really like to see a lot more companies take a holistic approach to growth, thinking about acquisition, retention, and monetization together as a system.

Adam Fishman advocates for a comprehensive approach to growth that integrates different aspects rather than isolating them.

It was bad. We ended up backpedaling, rolling it back, and learned a very valuable and painful lesson.

This quote refers to the significant backlash Patreon faced after a poorly received experiment, highlighting the importance of considering stakeholder perspectives before implementing changes.

• Innovative use of new features, such as iOS widgets, can drive product-led growth.
• Simple, viral, and sharing-oriented product experiences can lead to rapid growth.
• Companies like Locket have effectively utilized these strategies to create engaging and viral products.

Yeah, I'm really impressed with companies taking advantage of new features in iOS.

Adam Fishman expresses admiration for companies that leverage new technological features to enhance their growth strategies.

It's like this nice middle ground between sort of an annoying social media broadcast that everyone turns off and a one to one message that has no viral coefficient.

The quote describes the balance that Locket has struck with its product experience, which is neither too intrusive nor too limited in its reach.