Why it is so hard to escape poverty || Mordecai Ogada

The conversation delves into the complex interplay between wealth, conservation, and historical imperialism in Kenya, featuring insights from a wildlife ecologist and policy consultant. The discussion critiques the colonial legacy that continues to influence land ownership and resource management, highlighting how conservation efforts often prioritize foreign interests over local communities. The guest, co-author of "The Big Conservation Lie," emphasizes the need to redefine wealth beyond material accumulation, advocating for a holistic understanding that includes social and environmental well-being. The dialogue also touches on systemic issues like privatization of natural resources and the undervaluation of intellectual property in Kenya.

• The concept of wealth is often misunderstood and misrepresented, particularly in the context of government contracts and societal status.
• Wealth is frequently equated with monetary value and external symbols of success, rather than genuine contentment and peace.
• The societal focus on wealth can lead to detrimental outcomes, including exploitation and unsustainable practices.

"I hate to break this to you, but chances are everything you know about wealth could be a lie."

• This quote challenges the conventional understanding of wealth, suggesting that societal perceptions may be misleading or superficial.

"We are so stuck on this mantra of wealth, and it has poisoned our whole natural resource management, us as individuals, and even the Kenya government."

• The fixation on wealth has negatively influenced various sectors, including natural resource management, by prioritizing monetary gain over sustainable practices.

• The British Empire's legacy has perpetuated a misguided emphasis on wealth, influencing modern societies, including Kenya.
• The societal obsession with wealth often leads to intrusive behaviors and distorted values.
• The conservation and tourism sectors are particularly affected, with a focus on monetization rather than sustainability.

"The British Empire really rode on this mantra of wealth...we have taken that thing to heart."

• The British Empire's focus on wealth has been internalized by societies, affecting how they value and manage resources.

"Our conservation sector is not sustainable because it is sustained by money, by guns, violence, extrajudicial killings, and fences."

• The current approach to conservation is unsustainable, relying on force and financial incentives rather than genuine environmental stewardship.

• Conservation practices in Africa are heavily influenced by colonial legacies, with a focus on maintaining spaces for white interests.
• Institutions were established to train Africans to manage wildlife for white people, perpetuating racial inequalities.
• The perception of white individuals as saviors of African wildlife is a persistent issue.

"In 1961, the African Wildlife Foundation...created an institution to teach Africans how to manage wildlife for white people."

• This historical context highlights the racial dynamics in conservation, where Africans were trained to serve colonial interests.

"That's what we need to escape from...in Kenya, we are still locked into tourism is about white people."

• The ongoing association of tourism with white interests underscores the need for a shift towards more inclusive and equitable conservation practices.

• Wealth should be defined by contentment and peace, not just material possessions or external validation.
• The focus on external symbols of wealth often overshadows the true essence of well-being and sustainability.
• The societal emphasis on wealth can lead to superficial measures of success and undermine genuine conservation efforts.

"We have a misconception of what wealth should be...wealth is contentment, a state of having enough."

• This redefinition of wealth emphasizes the importance of internal fulfillment over external displays of success.

"The feeling of wealth is so dependent on external perceptions rather than internal sort of situation."

• The reliance on external validation for a sense of wealth can detract from authentic well-being and sustainable practices.

• Land ownership in Kenya is deeply rooted in colonial practices, with land grants given to settlers as a means of control and settlement.
• The distribution of land has perpetuated inequalities and maintained a system of privilege for certain groups.
• The transition from ranches to conservancies has been used as a strategy to evade taxation and maintain control over land.

"Kenya in many ways is the imperialist dream...we still hang on with some of these absurdities."

• The persistence of colonial land practices highlights the enduring impact of imperialism on land ownership and management.

"Those lands do not have title deeds the way my small plot has a title deed."

• The lack of formal title deeds for large land holdings underscores the disparities in land ownership and the legacy of colonialism.

• Public relations and recognition play a significant role in shaping perceptions of conservation efforts and individuals.
• The contributions of individuals like Wangari Maathai are often overshadowed by the narratives surrounding white conservationists.
• The emphasis on PR can distort the true value and impact of conservation work, prioritizing image over substance.

"PR plays a huge part in Kenya...but in conservation, the foundation is race."

• The interplay between race and PR in conservation affects how contributions are recognized and valued.

"The real work she really did still somehow escaped recognition."

• Despite significant contributions, the work of individuals like Wangari Maathai is often underappreciated due to the focus on PR and external narratives.

• Kenya's reliance on external funding and influence undermines its sovereignty and control over conservation efforts.
• There is a need for government funding and support to ensure that conservation practices align with national interests and priorities.
• The current dependency on foreign donors and NGOs can lead to human rights violations and a loss of agency.

"Kenya Wildlife Service should be fully funded by government...we can't have Kenya Wildlife Service begging from donors."

• Government funding is essential to maintain sovereignty and control over conservation efforts, reducing reliance on external influences.

"We are losing control of that sector and we pretend to still be...we think that's normal."

• The loss of control over conservation practices highlights the need for a shift towards self-reliance and sustainable management.

• Non-profit organizations in conservancies avoid taxes despite generating income through hotels and other ventures.
• Carbon trading in conservancies lacks transparency, making it difficult to track income.
• Attempts to raise land rates in areas like Lyia were resisted to maintain secrecy about land ownership.

"Profit organizations they aren't taxed but there are hotels in these conservies income generating all sorts of but under the title conservancy they don't pay taxes."

• This quote highlights the tax evasion tactics used by conservancies by operating under a non-profit status while generating significant income.

"Once you start paying land rate it means there's a record you are paying who is paying it shows this land belongs it's Modai paying okay and he's paying 1 million so that means he has a 100,000 acres."

• The resistance to land rate increases was not about the money but about maintaining secrecy over land ownership.

• Rhinos are used as a tool for land grabbing due to their perceived conservation value.
• Acquiring a rhino can grant individuals licenses to fence large areas of land and access to firearms for protection.
• The presence of rhinos can lead to human displacement and increased security measures.

"A rhino is the most powerful land grabbing tool in Africa today if you could acquire a rhino by whatever means if I could get a rhino yeah if you could get a rhino somewhere this means buying it or catching it."

• Rhinos are instrumental in acquiring land due to the conservation narrative that accompanies their presence.

"You'd get a license for firearms to guard this rhino you'd get you'd get even the ability to shoot dead anyone you see near that rhino."

• The presence of rhinos justifies extreme security measures, impacting the local population's freedom and safety.

• Conservation efforts have prioritized wildlife over human life, reducing the quality of life for those living near conservancies.
• Historical predictions foresaw the prioritization of wildlife over local communities in Africa.
• The value of rhino horns has led to increased violence and human rights abuses in regions with rhino habitats.

"This conservation thing has reduced human life below animals absolutely."

• Conservation practices have created an imbalance where wildlife is valued more than human life.

"Walter Rodney when he was in living in Tanzania in the 1973 he actually wrote that Kenya Uganda and Tanzania are going to become wildlife republics where the lives of wildlife and those who come to see them will be given higher priority than the lives of locals."

• This quote reflects a long-standing prediction of the prioritization of wildlife over local communities.

• Privatization of water resources is occurring under the guise of improving infrastructure.
• Organizations like the Nature Conservancy are fronts for commercial interests in water privatization.
• Privatization limits access to natural resources for local communities and increases costs for end users.

"Privatization is when commercial interests come and want to take control or actually take control of a natural source of fresh water."

• Privatization involves commercial entities taking control of natural resources, impacting local access and increasing costs.

"They come and offer or we'll help you um modify your infrastructure to avoid leakage to make it more efficient to reach more people etc."

• Organizations present privatization as infrastructure improvement, masking the true intent of resource control.

• The introduction of GMO seeds and prohibition of indigenous seed exchanges fosters dependency on commercial seed providers.
• Regulations restrict local trade and self-sufficiency in agriculture, increasing reliance on external systems.
• Dependency is a tool of capitalism to maintain control over populations.

"Dependency is the tool most powerful tool of capitalism if people start doing their own thing without having to buy seed every season."

• Capitalist systems promote dependency to maintain control, discouraging self-sufficiency in agriculture.

"The farm bill was passed and it is now illegal for me to grow my maze and give you oh you want some seed that is illegal now."

• Legislation restricts traditional agricultural practices, forcing reliance on commercial seed providers.

• Colonialism was driven by the need for resources, leading to the exploitation of African lands and people.
• Structures established during colonialism continue to influence current socio-economic systems.
• The narrative of white superiority was constructed to justify colonial exploitation.

"The coming of white people was not because they liked us or wanted to help us they are they were hungry and had stripped their homelands of resources."

• Colonialism was motivated by resource scarcity in Europe, leading to the exploitation of African resources.

"You need to create structures as in rules government apartheide whatever it is you need to create how do you make these Africans work for you."

• Colonial powers established structures to control and exploit African populations for economic gain.

• The podcast discusses the historical exploitation of Kenya by colonial powers, particularly through the tea industry.
• Structures were set up during colonial times to efficiently exploit resources, with the UK benefiting more from Kenyan tea than Kenya itself.
• The tea is exported with no value addition or branding, leading to greater profits for foreign companies.

"The structures they created here were to help them exploit us more efficiently. That's why they created very orderly tea estates which provide more profit."

• This quote highlights how colonial systems were designed to maximize exploitation and profit for the colonizers.

"Britain earns more profit from Kenya's tea than Kenya."

• The quote underscores the ongoing economic imbalance where the UK benefits disproportionately from Kenyan resources.

• The conversation touches on historical land ownership issues in Kenya, where colonial and post-independence elites control vast tracts of land.
• The transition from colonial rule was more of a reshuffle than true independence, with power remaining in the hands of a few.
• Land ownership is tied to nobility and power, creating barriers for new entrants into the land-owning class.

"We still have nobility in Kenya now, and this is why economic growth in many parts of this country is still dependent on those noble families."

• This quote explains how land ownership and economic power are concentrated among a few elite families, hindering broader economic growth.

"Land was power, and that's what the British sought to establish here."

• The quote highlights the historical context of land as a source of power and control, perpetuated by colonial policies.

• The podcast discusses the precarious nature of wealth in Kenya, where individuals can quickly lose their fortunes.
• Political instability and dependency on government contracts contribute to financial insecurity.
• The societal pressure to display wealth often leads to financial imprudence.

"Kenya for one is a very precarious society. We are a very unstable society."

• This quote reflects the economic vulnerability faced by many due to systemic instability.

"In Kenya, we have this danger of instability, and I think what we need to teach the coming generation is to shut out the noise."

• The quote emphasizes the need for financial prudence and the ability to ignore societal pressures.

• The podcast highlights the role of political elites in perpetuating economic disparities.
• Politicians often exert influence through social connections, leading to a lack of accountability.
• The relationship between wealth and political power is complex and often detrimental to economic equity.

"Politicians in Kenya are parasites. You see someone hang out with them, and they go to places and have drinks, and the politician gets up and leaves you with the bill."

• The quote illustrates how political elites exploit social connections for personal gain.

"They are the ones who, on the surface, are very rich but are one election loss away from poverty."

• This quote underscores the fragile nature of wealth tied to political influence.

• The podcast explores cultural attitudes towards wealth, land, and power, particularly the notion of nobility.
• There is a distinction between old money and new money, with land ownership being a key factor in social status.
• The societal expectation to display wealth often leads to financial instability.

"It's about nobility, and it's attached to land. If you owned a factory, that's not a problem, but owning land is acquiring power."

• This quote highlights the cultural significance of land as a status symbol and source of power.

"The gallery in Kenya is brutal and powerful. People make money and don't know what to invest in."

• The quote reflects the societal pressure to display wealth and the resulting financial imprudence.

• Discusses the challenges and corruption in land ownership, highlighting the difficulties in obtaining legitimate land titles.
• Mentions the influence of peer pressure and misleading marketing tactics in land sales.
• Emphasizes the systemic corruption that affects due diligence in land transactions.

"Some of them are victims of the inherent corruption of the system because you can do due diligence and even get to the level of getting a title to some extent."

• Land ownership is plagued by systemic corruption, making it difficult for individuals to secure legitimate titles despite thorough due diligence.

"People want you to... there's this wonderful place and you are shown a view of Mount Kenya and then you told it's Nuki."

• Misleading marketing tactics are used to sell land, exploiting people's desire for prestigious locations.

• Contrasts the older generation's programming with the self-awareness and value of the younger generation.
• Highlights a shift in societal values, with younger generations valuing self-worth and questioning authority.
• Stresses the importance of individual values over societal or institutional values.

"The coming generation... have learned to see when they cheated and they don't have this politana or we are useless."

• Younger generations are more self-aware and critical, valuing themselves and recognizing when they are being deceived.

"We need to each have our individual values not look for values in government statements... find values in yourself."

• Emphasizes the importance of developing personal values rather than relying on external sources like government or society.

• Critiques the societal undervaluation of intellectual property and the tendency to prioritize shortcuts over genuine intellectual work.
• Discusses the normalization of intellectual theft and its impact on development and innovation.
• Calls for proper recognition and compensation for intellectual contributions to foster a society that values thought and creativity.

"Our behavior towards intellectual property makes us look for shortcuts everywhere."

• The undervaluation of intellectual property leads to a culture of shortcuts and undermines genuine intellectual efforts.

"We must change and start treating intellectual work the way it should be treated."

• Advocates for a societal shift in how intellectual work is valued and compensated to encourage innovation and development.

• Explores the misconceptions about wealth, focusing on accumulation rather than quality of life.
• Highlights the societal acceptance of wealth without questioning its origins or the ethical implications.
• Discusses the historical context of wealth accumulation through exploitation and the need to differentiate between wealth and accumulation.

"Our idea of wealth is quantitative... but we forget the qualitative side of it."

• Critiques the focus on the quantity of wealth rather than the quality of life it provides.

"We need to separate between wealth and accumulation."

• Stresses the importance of understanding the difference between genuine wealth and mere accumulation, often rooted in exploitation.

• Emphasizes the importance of reading history to understand current societal structures and issues.
• Discusses how historical exploitation has shaped present-day wealth and power dynamics.
• Encourages individuals to learn the history of their fields to gain a deeper understanding of contemporary challenges.

"If you don't read history you cannot understand the present."

• Understanding history is crucial for comprehending current societal dynamics and issues.

"Read the history of that bank... you'll find kina blay started from slave trade."

• Knowing the historical roots of institutions and industries can provide insight into their present-day operations and challenges.