The Anti-D.E.I. Crusader Who Wants to Dismantle the Department of Education

In this podcast episode, host Ross engages with Christopher Ruffo, a prominent activist known for his efforts against diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives, which he argues have become pervasive and detrimental across American institutions. Ruffo discusses his journey from a leftist background to becoming a conservative activist and critic of DEI and critical race theory (CRT). He explains his role in framing CRT as a central issue and outlines his strategy for dismantling DEI programs, particularly within federal agencies and educational institutions, advocating for a return to colorblind equality. Ruffo emphasizes the need for a conservative reinterpretation of civil rights laws and highlights the challenges of reforming entrenched bureaucracies, arguing for strategic dismantling where reform seems impossible. The conversation also touches on the complexities of university admissions and the broader cultural and political shifts surrounding these debates.

• Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives gained significant traction during Donald Trump's first term, becoming central to elite American institutions.
• The Trump administration actively worked to dismantle DEI programs within the federal government.
• Major corporations and universities are also retreating from DEI initiatives, reflecting a broader shift away from these efforts.

"So this week we're going to talk about DEI diversity, equity and inclusion. A vision of social justice that took elite America and all its institutions by storm during Donald Trump's first term. And a vision, as almost everyone has noticed, that is now in full scale retreat."

• DEI is described as a vision of social justice that was widely adopted but is now experiencing a significant decline.

• Christopher Ruffo is identified as a pivotal figure in the retreat of DEI initiatives, likened to influential activists of the past.
• Ruffo's personal journey from a left-leaning background to a prominent conservative activist is highlighted.
• His upbringing in a family with strong communist ties contrasts with his current conservative stance.

"Almost all of this shift happened because of the work of just one man, arguably the most important activist in American politics since the days of Ralph Nader and Phyllis Schlafly. That man is our guest today, Christopher Ruffo."

• Ruffo is credited with significantly influencing the current political landscape regarding DEI and critical race theory.

• Ruffo's political evolution from left to right is explored, noting his family's communist roots and his initial leftist views.
• His career as a documentary filmmaker exposed him to the prevailing left-wing ideologies within the industry.

"I started as a young man, very much on the left, even the far left. My family members on my father's side in particular are very far left, unreconstructed communists in Italy."

• Ruffo's shift from left to right is underscored by his family's political background and his early experiences in a left-leaning environment.

• Ruffo's work in documentary filmmaking was not overtly political but operated within a politically charged industry.
• He observed the dominance of left-wing ideologies in the documentary world and the influence of philanthropic funding.

"The industry itself was hyper political. And what we now think of as wokeness or left wing race and gender ideology was already kind of the dominant system of beliefs in the documentary world in the late 2000s, early 2000s."

• The documentary industry's reliance on philanthropic funding is linked to the prevalence of left-wing ideologies.

• Ruffo describes a shift in leftist ideology from 2014 to 2020, culminating in the prominence of race and sexuality narratives.
• The George Floyd protests and the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) are highlighted as radicalizing events for Ruffo.

"The moments that you could say are points of radicalization for me were all in the wake of George Floyd observing and even doing on the ground reporting in Seattle."

• The events surrounding George Floyd's death and CHAZ are pivotal in Ruffo's radicalization and critique of leftist ideologies.

• Ruffo identifies critical race theory (CRT) as the ideological foundation of DEI initiatives, tracing its influence across various institutions.
• He argues that CRT encompasses extreme left-wing racialism and critiques its application in institutional settings.

"If you actually read the critical race theory literature, it is Ibram Kendi and Robin Diangelo and all of the excesses of left wing racialism."

• Ruffo critiques CRT as embodying extreme racial ideologies and argues against its widespread institutional adoption.

• Ruffo strategically used the term "critical race theory" to encapsulate various left-wing ideologies, finding it both accurate and rhetorically effective.
• He highlights the importance of naming in framing political debates and advancing conservative counter-narratives.

"I realized that in a sense, by accident, it was also the most rhetorically effective framing, because, as you said, it was not an obvious pejorative."

• The strategic use of CRT as a term is emphasized for its effectiveness in political discourse and conservative activism.

• Ruffo acknowledges the existence of systemic racial discrimination but critiques the application of CRT in addressing these issues.
• He argues for a more nuanced discussion of historical racial discrimination without adopting CRT's extreme measures.

"We had systemic racial discrimination in this country for a very long time. It's had an effect on how our society has developed."

• While recognizing historical racial injustices, Ruffo criticizes CRT's approach and calls for a balanced discussion on structural racism.

• The concept of "wokeness" peaked around 2021, with a noticeable decline in influence by 2022.
• A political shift was marked by Ron DeSantis's reelection in 2022, challenging the notion that fighting cultural issues like Disney, gender, and CRT would result in political losses.
• The political landscape allowed for more aggressive actions against "woke" ideologies, although the outcome was uncertain and contingent on future political events.

"I think probably 2021 was at the fever pitch. 2022 was still relatively strong in the spring of that year. And then I think that the political turn was the DeSantis reelection in 2022."

• The quote highlights the peak and subsequent decline of wokeness, with DeSantis's reelection serving as a pivotal moment in the political shift.

• The Trump administration aligned with strategies to counter left-wing ideologies, implementing a blueprint for decisive action.
• Key actions included abolishing DEI departments across federal agencies and extending prohibitions to federal contractors and funding recipients.
• The administration aimed to eliminate funding for left-wing causes, marking a significant shift from previous administrations.

"I laid out in the transition period a counter-revolution blueprint that outlined my strategy... And to my great enjoyment, five out of the six recommendations... have been put into action."

• This quote emphasizes the implementation of strategic recommendations to combat DEI initiatives and the broader left-wing agenda.

• The Trump administration rolled back affirmative action executive orders dating back to Lyndon Johnson, challenging longstanding Republican reluctance to address these issues.
• The rollback represents a counter-revolutionary approach, with the aim of redefining civil rights enforcement to promote colorblind equality.
• The debate centers around whether to abolish or reinterpret civil rights laws to align with constitutional principles.

"We're going to try to do what not only other Republican presidents haven't touched, but they've actually assented to, agreed to, expanded and strengthened."

• The quote underscores the administration's bold approach to reversing affirmative action policies, contrasting with previous Republican administrations.

• Historically, corporate America has supported diversity programs, viewing them as beneficial for business.
• The post-civil rights consensus included modest diversification initiatives, but current debates question their alignment with the Civil Rights Act.
• There is skepticism about the genuine support for diversity initiatives, with some viewing them as a necessary concession rather than a business imperative.

"I think you may be overestimating the support in corporate America. I think it was really just a kind of concession."

• This quote questions the depth of corporate America's commitment to diversity initiatives, suggesting they were more about compliance than genuine support.

• Representation in politics and elite institutions has been a longstanding practice, balancing various demographic considerations.
• While some argue for colorblind policies, others see value in maintaining diverse representation for societal and institutional balance.
• The debate continues over how representation should be managed, with some advocating for subtle, merit-based approaches.

"I don't think that people genuinely care about precise mathematical representation across every institution."

• The quote reflects a belief that most people prioritize fairness and merit over rigid diversity quotas, suggesting a more nuanced approach to representation.

• The right is divided between radical libertarian views and those advocating for a reinterpretation of civil rights laws.
• The goal is to establish a system of colorblind equality, challenging current practices of racial favoritism.
• The debate is expected to intensify, with a focus on pushing the discussion leftward to force a resolution between establishment liberals and race radicals.

"The right needs to have its own interpretation of civil rights law, and it needs to take over enforcement of civil rights law to have essentially an alternative vision."

• This quote highlights the strategic aim of redefining civil rights enforcement to align with conservative values and constitutional principles.

• Discussion on the perception of affirmative action and its evolution into what some perceive as "woke ideology."
• Debate on whether the Civil Rights Act itself is problematic or if its interpretation needs adjustment to curb affirmative action excesses.
• Consideration of what constitutes true colorblind equality and how it should be enforced across institutions.

"I think we have an opportunity to go forward to say, hey, what? Look, we've had this experiment with affirmative action that metamorphosized into woke ideology, into dei, into rampant discrimination that rewards and punishes people based on their ancestry."

• The speaker argues for moving beyond affirmative action towards a system of colorblind equality.

• Examination of the Trump administration's approach to enforcing civil rights laws equally, regardless of race.
• Challenges in deciding what constitutes racial discrimination versus normal racial balancing in university admissions.
• The role of government bureaucrats in determining the line between discrimination and balancing.

"True colorblind equality requires equal enforcement."

• The speaker emphasizes the necessity of enforcing civil rights laws equally for all racial groups.

• Proposal for universities to publish disaggregated data on race, sex, GPA, SAT scores, and class rank to ensure transparency.
• Suggestion that increased transparency could lead to automatic accountability in admissions processes.
• Importance of addressing DEI bureaucracies as a more significant issue than admissions statistics alone.

"Publish your numbers, make them available so that if there is the appearance that there is a large, say, disparity in SAT scores and GPA based on groups and admissions, you then create the opening for a public inquiry."

• The speaker suggests that transparency in admissions data could reveal and address potential disparities.

• Discussion on the Trump administration's approach to reforming or dismantling federal programs perceived as ideologically biased.
• Consideration of the complexities involved in cutting or maintaining programs within departments like USAID and the Department of Education.
• Strategies for managing politically popular programs while targeting those deemed ideological.

"What I would recommend in particular for that institution is to bracket out those programs that are worthwhile, that are politically popular, that are going to be very difficult to cut even if you wanted to do so."

• The speaker outlines a strategy for reforming the Department of Education by preserving essential programs and cutting ideological ones.

• Debate on the benefits and drawbacks of abolishing or maintaining the Department of Education.
• Consideration of the potential impact of block granting funds to states and the varying political landscapes at the state level.
• Discussion on the potential for federal influence to be used for conservative educational reforms.

"Why would you even want to, why wouldn't you just say, we're going to have a Department of Education, it's going to do the things that you yourself have described as the biggest financial portion of what it does, right?"

• The speaker questions the rationale for abolishing the Department of Education instead of reforming it to align with conservative values.

• The Department of Education is seen as an institution with a deeply ingrained culture that is resistant to change, making reform efforts challenging.
• The bureaucracy within the department is perceived as unaccountable, with career staff often outlasting political appointees and maintaining the status quo.
• There is a debate on whether the Department of Education can be reformed or if it should be dismantled to the extent allowed by law.

"It's very easy to cut external contracts, external funding, et cetera. It's very difficult to take an institution and the kind of permanent bureaucracy of that institution and to change its culture."

• Changing the culture of a bureaucratic institution is complex and challenging due to entrenched practices and personnel.

"We know that we're going to be here in four years or eight years or 12 years or 16 years. And we know that you're going to be gone in two years or six years, whatever it might be."

• Career staff in government agencies often have job security that outlasts political appointees, leading to resistance to change.

• There is skepticism about the ability to staff the Department of Education with right-leaning or centrist individuals given the predominantly left-leaning nature of the education field.
• The discussion highlights a perceived imbalance in ideological representation within the education system at both federal and state levels.

"If you can't find enough right leaning or centrist people to staff a stripped down and slimmer Department of Education to affect American education in the way you want, how are you ever going to find enough personnel to do it at the state level?"

• The challenge of finding personnel with desired ideological leanings is a significant concern for reform efforts.

"Conservatives cannot fully staff the Department of Education. Conservatives cannot fully compete for education grants for university level research programs."

• The difficulty in staffing and competing for educational influence reflects broader challenges conservatives face in the education sector.

• Proposals include spinning off, privatizing, and reforming student loan programs to put financial pressure on universities.
• The aim is to create a more competitive market for universities, encouraging them to make difficult financial decisions and potentially reducing their budgets.

"By spinning off, privatizing and then reforming the student loan programs, I think that you could, by a degree or two degrees of separation, put the university sector as a whole into a significant recession."

• Reforming financial structures could create economic pressure on universities, potentially leading to significant changes in their operations.

"A medium term goal, maybe longer term goal of mine is to figure out how to adjust the formula of finances from the federal government to the universities in a way that puts them in kind of an existential terror."

• Financial restructuring is seen as a way to incentivize universities to reassess their priorities and operations.

• There is a call for a return to classical liberal arts education, emphasizing civil debate and inquiry into enduring human questions.
• The discussion includes the need for a more nuanced and rich narrative about America that goes beyond traditional patriotic education.

"What we're doing at New College is reintroducing the eternal human questions. So in our New College mission statement, which we revised, was essentially it's a community of scholars and learners that have a shared commitment to a culture of civil debate and inquiry."

• Emphasizing classical education and civil discourse is seen as a way to enrich the educational experience and foster critical thinking.

"Conservatives need a more arresting, a more sophisticated, a more complex story that we tell about the country that still captures the essence of the goodness of this country."

• Developing a deeper and more sophisticated narrative about America is important for providing a balanced educational perspective.

• The inclusion of diverse and opposing viewpoints in the curriculum is highlighted as essential for a well-rounded education.
• The example of pairing opposing ideological texts in a course is provided as a model for encouraging critical analysis and debate.

"He paired TA Nehisi Coates with my book. He paired Ibram Kendi with Eric Kaufman, the conservative social scientist."

• Presenting contrasting viewpoints allows students to engage with and critically assess different perspectives.

"You need to have something better. Conservatives need a more arresting, a more sophisticated, a more complex story that we tell about the country."

• Acknowledging the complexity of America's history and society is crucial for developing a comprehensive educational narrative.

• The importance of engaging with influential but ideologically opposed authors is emphasized for intellectual growth and understanding.
• Reading works from diverse ideological backgrounds is seen as valuable for developing critical thinking skills.

"I think that without a doubt Herbert Marcuse, the New Left philosopher who was the leading philosophical intellectual light of the New Left in the late 60s, early 70s."

• Engaging with influential thinkers from opposing ideologies provides insights into their perspectives and strengthens critical analysis skills.